Ventrue vs Lasombra

Joined: 01 Dec 2007 Posts: 331

This is an idea that I was going to implement upon my own mud, because to me, it just made good sense.

The Ventrue and the Lasombra were made to do the same thing, but for different sects. Both are leaders. In fact, that's part of the reason why they came to blows a lot in the Dark Ages. However, Lasombra ended up, not only with a unique discipline to their clan, and Potence (Which adds auto-successes, whereas Fortitude still needs rolled), but they also managed a plethora of only-clan merits and flaws.

The Ventrue got...three common disciplines, a clan weakness that STs tend to take into account much more than that of a Lasombra, and one single clan merit, that is barely even worth the 6 points that it costs.

My suggestion, in order to balance this out a bit more, is that, at creation, I think that Ventrue should be able to purchase Allies/Contacts/Influence/Retainers at a lower price.

For instance, a Ventrue asks for a 2pt ghoul retainer.

It would actually just cost him 1 pt, but he'd get the benefit of the full two points (Maybe the ghoul had nicer stats?)

Or if he wanted to purchase a 2pt influence in a local shipping yard, and it only costed him 1 freebie, actually.

Allies/Contacts/Influence/Retainers are what the Ventrue are all about, in my opinion. They point cell phones, not guns.

It's important to note that this would only be effective during creation. Purchasing them in-game would still cost the normal amount.

Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 21

I agree that the Lasombra outmatch the Ventrue, but they also outmatch pretty much every other clan.

Also, take into account Ventrue's three 'common' disciplines. Presence and dominate together are formidable, along with the use of fortitude as a way to survive.

A much better suggestion is to simply make fortitude auto soak successes.

Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 210

I agree with Kennith, If it is to be ballanced auto success on fortitude would apply.

Joined: 01 Dec 2007 Posts: 331

I see what you're saying, and hell, I would /love/ to see Ventrue get Fortitude as something as an auto-soaking ability, so that I don't have Fortitude5, and wind up soaking 1 point of damage from a crappy role.

But taking a step back and looking at it from a larger perspective, that they are leaders of the Camarilla (Despite what the Tremere might think.), I think it just makes good sense for them to get cheaper allies/influences/contacts/retainers. It's what they are about. The /one/ Ventrue-only merit allows them to get a higher ranking in one of those backgrounds, but isn't hardly worth the points that are paid into attaining it.

And the fact that they /do/ have Presence as well as Dominate, helps to play into the theory that they would have little trouble in getting cohorts, which would be shown by the fact that they could get twice as many as most of the other clans could get.

This is just my opinion, however, as steadfast as I might defend it.

-Endy

Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Posts: 6

I personally like the idea of letting Fortitude act as an auto soak, which would balance things out a significant amount.

On the flip side, there's the idea that the Potence rules are changed instead; letting each dot of it add dice to the damage pool rather than acting as an auto success?

I'm sure everyone is going to disagree with me, so I apologize in advance. This is just my humble little thought.

Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 210

But dont you think having allies and contacts in your background and frebiees are cheep anyways. They are only one point each to actualy buy.

Making them cheaper isnt the answer. if making a ventrue, people must think at creation and stripdown the things that they dont need, and bulk them up in places they do.

Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 21

Elwapo's correct.

But also, giving them cheaper backgrounds doesn't make any sense system-wise or IC wise, as this is a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. Dots need to be justified, and having cheaper backgrounds can't be justified in any way, icly.

Joined: 29 Nov 2007 Posts: 7

I'd say players should focus less upon 'how powerful' their characters are and more upon the roleplay of it. If your wanting a war machine make a brujah. The system was written the way it was for reasons well beyond me but it has always seemed to sort itself out. Maybe ventrue are slightly weaker because their meant to bring friends to the chronicle? Less 1 on 1 gunslinger more "the warrior's gotta make it back home safe!"

Joined: 01 Dec 2007 Posts: 331

Well, according to the interview that was done with Mark Rein-Hagen, back in '90 something, the Ventrue were probably the worst done clan of them all. Even /he/ thought they were trashily put together, and as a last-minute sort of idea. which is why they got shafted.

They tried to fix this in Vampire: The Dark Ages, but ended up only...giving them more of a backstory. Heh.

Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 21

Try to create a Ventrue clan discipline. rofl.

I don't like the idea of them getting backgrounds at less cost. Really. Consider the caitiff, or the Nosferatu. Nossies don't have a clan-specific discipline. And they're doomed to lurk in the sewers. And the brujah don't have a clan-specific discipline.

I really don't understand why you want to buff up Ventrue. They can gain backgrounds just fine, especially with their disciplines.

Joined: 01 Dec 2007 Posts: 331

Oh, I'm just tossing ideas around, really. Not so much as trying to buff them up a whole lot, as put them on an equal, or more equal footing. I wouldn't say the same for the Nosferatu or the Caitiff, because the Nosferatu have an insanely powerful combo of disciplines, followed with one of the longest lists of Clan Merits there is. And the Caitiff aren't supposed to be the leaders of the Camarilla, like the Ventrue are. (In my eyes, anyway).

Like I said. These are just my opinions, really.

Joined: 12 Dec 2007 Posts: 9

Before I begin: Nosferatu are about as 'doomed' as any other Clan. They lurk in the sewers because they have a million toys in there and it's clan tradition. Plus they have the most insane network of contacts and the like known to pretty much anyone. And for the record, Nosferatu have a clan-specific Background that's remarkably scary. Network, I believe it's called. It's like Contacts on steroids.

Perhaps, instead of 'Ventrue get this bonus', it becomes 'people with high social stats + relevant disciplines get this bonus'. Although yeah, earning the backgrounds in game isn't much of an issue either.

Perhaps the versatility lies in that with Ventrue, it's easier to justify having higher backgrounds (Ventrue with Resources 4 versus Nosferatu with Resources 4) and more backgrounds (Resources 4, Influence 3 [Big Money Incorporated], Herd 2 [Blood Bank], Contacts 3 [Editor of Newspaper, Mayor, God] does not seem out of character for a Ventrue to possess, whereas anyone else would have to bend over backwards to even get that much, let alone have it as a 'standard bar'). Plus being Ventrue gets them natural segways into other areas of Influence. Yeah, their supernatural advantages are nothing special if you take into account that a Toreador with Dominate is about as versatile, and that Presence and Dominate together isn't all it's cracked up to be at times. But again, they're not supposed to be limited to their three common disciplines. They just get to buy up their social stuff more cheaply than other clans. And because of this, it also becomes relatively easy to learn other disciplines by trading favors and so on.

Yeah, Obten is cool. A Lasombra who focuses on Obten is cool. A Ventrue with another discipline or two outside of their three In-Clans at one or two dots each is still quite versatile (at about the same cost as a Lasombra who dumps all their XP into Obten), and risks a lot less to the Masquerade.